"The Christian Life" -- Open Dialogue with Dr. Martin Hanna

[Martin Hanna]

Dear Sabbath School Scholars,
Please join me in sharing questions and thoughts on this quarter’s Sabbath School Study Guide on "The Christian life." This forum is intended to be a place for raising questions related to the Study Guide and respectfully considering each others perspectives. Where we disagree we will disagree agreeably.

To get the discussion going, here are some of my comments and questions on the first three lessons which have to do with faith, hope, and love. You don’t need to respond to all the texts or all the questions. Choose at least one of the texts and/or one of the questions and let me know what you think.

Comments: Paul teaches that faith, hope and love abide, but love is the greatest (1 Cor 13:13). Also, faith waits in hope and works by love (Gal 5:5-6). Finally, we are saved by grace through faith (Eph 2:8); saved by hope (Rom 8:24), and saved through love of the truth (2 Thess 2:10).

Questions: Why is love the greatest? Can we have love without faith and hope? What are the relations between faith, hope, and love?

I look forward to hearing from you!

[Leslie V. McMillan]

I can only discuss this and any other subject in the context of Jesus Christ. Out side of this context, your view is as good as mine. Yours or any one else's is correct. The logic, reasoning, philosophy, concept, argument, and facts may all be great, but out side of Chirist they do not matter. So I only smile, give recognization, agree and learn from all that may be said. But if one grounds all of the just mentioned discussion approaches in Chrtist, I am all ears. I am excited. There is meaning. Now this approach is not very popular, especially among Seventh-day Adventists. I suspect that it is because to do so one would be dealing with a theme in a subjective way. But that is just the point that I believe is so important. One can treat any theme in an objective manner, but subjectively is differenct.

So let me say now, that it is certainly wonderful having this contact with you. I have admired you over the years. Your dedication to things religious and spiritual is worthy of note. I am happy that God could have used me to be the instrument, in one of my crusades to seal your decision for Him and His church. Keep doing well. The best to you and your family.

Having said that, let me say that I am looking for someone like you with whom I can share some subjective concepts about spiritual themes. I know that you will treat them in a way that will reveal their worth. Who knows, since I must decrease and you must increase, God can use you for continued proclamation of such delicate themes amoung His people. It may have to be in a closed forum or open if you wish. To be continued.......

[Martin Hanna]

Thanks for your words of encouragement. And I really appreciate your Christ-centered subjective emphasis. I expect that as we continue to dialogue the issue of how to connect objective and subjective dimensions will rise. I guess I am raising it now. I am very interested in that question.

Please continue to participate in the open forum on the Sabbath School Lesson. I am sure that all participants will benefit from that. At the same time, we should do a more “one on one” dialog in a private forum or by email. My address is: [e-mail] It would be wonderful if we could find a way to collaborate in promoting personal relationship with Christ.

[Audley Mitchell]

Love has got to be one of the most discussed topics in the history of mankind. It seems to engender so many different definitions of what it is and how it should be expressed.

The idea that love can only be expressed in the context of God is an interesting one, though, if love is defined as being God or Christlike, it is by definition existent only in the context of God.

I believe that the great thing about love is that it transcends all barriers. Love is felt and appreciated and expressed by the believer and atheist alike. Love is doing what is in the person's best interest, whether the person likes it or not, understands it or not (Romans 8:28); it is often something demonstrated by unbelievers and atheists.

Love is the foundation of faith and hope. What is there to look forward to, what is there to believe in?
Love makes life worth living. Love is the basis of forgiveness, of conflict resolution, of reconciliation. Love is not something Christians do, it is something we are...or become through Christ.

[Leslie V. McMillan]

Martin Hanna said:

Thanks for your words of encouragement. And I really appreciate your Christ-centered subjective emphasis. I expect that as we continue to dialogue the issue of how to connect objective and subjective dimensions will rise. I guess I am raising it now. I am very interested in that question.

Please continue to participate in the open forum on the Sabbath School Lesson. I am sure that all participants will benefit from that. At the same time, we should do a more “one on one” dialog in a private forum or by email. My address is: [e-mail] It would be wonderful if we could find a way to collaborate in promoting personal relationship with Christ.

Your suggestion for us to communicate via email is excellent. I will be in contact. But you posed and interesting question by saying how to connect the objective and subjective demensions? Before I give an answer, may I humble suggest that you review the definition of the words in Websters dictionary. I just did when I read you question. When you check the meaning of both words, you will find that one of them involves the other, while one stands alone. Check it out. You see I can only deal with such delicate aspects of a subject with persons like you. I look forward to your answer or comments. - LVM

[Keva Elaine Reid]

Hi,
Love is not the intangible thing that we often think of it as, love is a person, that person is Jesus Christ. From Him emanates everthing else... faith and hope. Love is simply the greatest: 1. Because Christ is the Greatest 2. The other qualities are empty without love. What is the use of having hope or faith if love is not present. One can also say that without love neither of the other qualities can truly exists. Can we really hope or trust without something or someone to love or who loves us?

Keva

[Martin Hanna]

Leslie V. McMillan said:

Martin Hanna said:

Thanks for your words of encouragement. And I really appreciate your Christ-centered subjective emphasis. I expect that as we continue to dialogue the issue of how to connect objective and subjective dimensions will rise. I guess I am raising it now. I am very interested in that question.

Please continue to participate in the open forum on the Sabbath School Lesson. I am sure that all participants will benefit from that. At the same time, we should do a more “one on one” dialog in a private forum or by email. My address is: [e-mail] It would be wonderful if we could find a way to collaborate in promoting personal relationship with Christ.

Your suggestion for us to communicate via email is excellent. I will be in contact. But you posed and interesting question by saying how to connect the objective and subjective demensions? Before I give an answer, may I humble suggest that you review the definition of the words in Websters dictionary. I just did when I read you question. When you check the meaning of both words, you will find that one of them involves the other, while one stands alone. Check it out. You see I can only deal with such delicate aspects of a subject with persons like you. I look forward to your answer or comments. - LVM

I agree with what is implied in your comment. There is a sense in which the objective (what I perceive) is contained in the subjective (my perception). I would suggest that there is also a sense in which the subjective (my perception of reality) is included in the objective (reality as a whole).

I will share some other thoughts on definitions in two separate comments below so it will be easier for others to respond to each one if they want to do so.

[Martin Hanna]

My interest was caught by two definitions of “objective” in the online Webster’s Dictionary: (1) an object of thought, and (2) objective reality apart from individual thought. The first definition seems to overlap with subjective thought. The second does not seem to do so.

As we studied lesson one, the love of God toward us was an object/subject of thought for all of us. At the same time, we believe that God’s love is an objective reality directed toward all persons even if they are not yet subjectively aware of it.

Does anyone have a comment on this?

[Martin Hanna]

With regard to “subjective”, two definitions caught my interest. (1) belonging to reality as perceived (subjective) rather than as independent of mind (objective), and (2) belonging to a particular individuals experience (subjective) in contrast with what all individuals experience (objective).

This raises two questions that I would like to have everyone think about and maybe share your thoughts. Are there aspects of God’s love that we all experience in the same way? Are there aspects of God’s love that are experienced in unique ways by each of us?

[Martin Hanna]

The following quote is taken from the introduction to the lesson study guide. Thats the section titled "Walking the Walk" which comes before lesson one. In this quote the distinction between objective and subject seems to be the distinction between doctrine and experience. I have inserted the words objective and subjective into the quote to highlight this.

"Truth is not just [objective] knowledge of doctrines and texts but something that influences the believer on a personal [subjective] level. [Objective] Truth affects the [subjective] spiritual life and impacts how a person will relate to the challenges of daily living. There is a [subjective] practical, life-changing aspect of our religion that never should be denied or denigrated. At the same time, the role of [subjective] experience never should take away from the importance of [objectively] correct biblical teachings.

This quarter we want to look at both aspects of our faith: [objective] doctrine and [subjective] experience. In our study during this quarter we will focus on 13 essential themes of the Christian faith, 13 essential teachings. Each week’s lesson will attempt to maintain a careful balance between a correct [objective] biblical understanding of these various elements of our faith and how they impact our daily [subjective] experience.

Inserting these words in this way demonstrates the danger of separating objective and subjective elements of Christianity. To hold to socalled objective truth without entering into a living experience with Jesus is a rejection of the One who is Truth. At the same tie, to hold to a socalled subjective experience with Jesus while consciously and persistently rejecting biblical truth is also a rejection of the True One who gave us the Bible.

[Leslie V. McMillan]

Martin Hanna said:

The following quote is taken from the introduction to the lesson study guide. Thats the section titled "Walking the Walk" which comes before lesson one. In this quote the distinction between objective and subject seems to be the distinction between doctrine and experience. I have inserted the words objective and subjective into the quote to highlight this.

"Truth is not just [objective] knowledge of doctrines and texts but something that influences the believer on a personal [subjective] level. [Objective] Truth affects the [subjective] spiritual life and impacts how a person will relate to the challenges of daily living. There is a [subjective] practical, life-changing aspect of our religion that never should be denied or denigrated. At the same time, the role of [subjective] experience never should take away from the importance of [objectively] correct biblical teachings.

This quarter we want to look at both aspects of our faith: [objective] doctrine and [subjective] experience. In our study during this quarter we will focus on 13 essential themes of the Christian faith, 13 essential teachings. Each week’s lesson will attempt to maintain a careful balance between a correct [objective] biblical understanding of these various elements of our faith and how they impact our daily [subjective] experience.

Inserting these words in this way demonstrates the danger of separating objective and subjective elements of Christianity. To hold to socalled objective truth without entering into a living experience with Jesus is a rejection of the One who is Truth. At the same tie, to hold to a socalled subjective experience with Jesus while consciously and persistently rejecting biblical truth is also a rejection of the True One who gave us the Bible.

You see you have hilighted the burden of my comments up to now. Remember that I said that one (objective or subjective) can stand alone and the other cannot? The point is that when the objective bacomes the subjective it (the objective) is not eliminated. The goal of the objective ( in spiritual matters) is to create a subjective reality.

The problem with many, and I see you seem to fall there, is that people try to balance them. That is impossible, becauxe the subjective must come out of the objective.

Now, let me challenge your mind again. Once the subjective becomes real for a person in Spiritual matters, before God that person is OK. Especially is this true for the person in Christ. Then lets move on to love. A person can treat love for eternity from an objective stand point. But, until or when that love becomes subjective, thats a differenct story - "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man laid down His life for a friend. I declare to all that until the objective (doctrins, love, law, sabbath, life style, even any of the 12 subjects of this quarter) become a subjective reality(and may I add) in Christ, there is no eternal value.

[Leslie V. McMillan]

Martin Hanna said:

Leslie V. McMillan said:

Martin Hanna said:

Thanks for your words of encouragement. And I really appreciate your Christ-centered subjective emphasis. I expect that as we continue to dialogue the issue of how to connect objective and subjective dimensions will rise. I guess I am raising it now. I am very interested in that question.

Please continue to participate in the open forum on the Sabbath School Lesson. I am sure that all participants will benefit from that. At the same time, we should do a more “one on one” dialog in a private forum or by email. My address is: [e-mail] It would be wonderful if we could find a way to collaborate in promoting personal relationship with Christ.

Your suggestion for us to communicate via email is excellent. I will be in contact. But you posed and interesting question by saying how to connect the objective and subjective demensions? Before I give an answer, may I humble suggest that you review the definition of the words in Websters dictionary. I just did when I read you question. When you check the meaning of both words, you will find that one of them involves the other, while one stands alone. Check it out. You see I can only deal with such delicate aspects of a subject with persons like you. I look forward to your answer or comments. - LVM

I agree with what is implied in your comment. There is a sense in which the objective (what I perceive) is contained in the subjective (my perception). I would suggest that there is also a sense in which the subjective (my perception of reality) is included in the objective (reality as a whole).

I will share some other thoughts on definitions in two separate comments below so it will be easier for others to respond to each one if they want to do so.

I agree. See my comments below.

[Martin Hanna]

It seems that you see a contradiction between your description of my position (balancing objective and subjective) and your description of your position (subjective coming out of the objective). Granted the wording is different. At the same time, I need more information about your perspective in order to understand what the essential contradiction is. I think of what Christ has done for me in his death and resurrection as objective acts of salvation. Also, I think of my being crucified and resurrected with Christ as a subjective expereince of salvation. Could this language provide common ground for our ongoing discussion? Or does it continue to highlight a contradiction between our positions?